New Hampshire and Vermont?
Well, they did come down,
they didn't come down through New Hampshire and Vermont.
They weren't there yet.
Okay.
They came down to Hudson, that was it, to Hudson.

- - - 00:00:20 - - -

Oh, okay.
And of course the fellow who was leading the British figured they were just, it was a piece of cake, he'd even brought his mistress.
And they'd have a nice lovely supper every night. Because this was just a piece of cake of what they were doing, but it wasn't.

- - - 00:00:40 - - -

And our grandfather was captured.

- - - 00:01:00 - - -

He was captured by Washington and his men.
And they were, they lived in Vermont, not Vermont.
They were in Massachusetts.

- - - 00:01:20 - - -

Right.
And when he was captured, he came down and into a little place between Vermont and New York.

- - - 00:01:40 - - -

And he ended up deciding when he was sent down this way he was going to find himself
be captured. He was going to allow himself to be captured by the New Yorkers. And I've

- - - 00:02:00 - - -

actually driven down right at the top of Vermont down where that area was that they were caught

- - - 00:02:20 - - -

that. And he was, they were taking him down to the river to put him into a boat to be,
that's where they were going to hold all their prisoners. But he found out that if you sold yourself

- - - 00:02:40 - - -

to a farmer in the area, then you'd be, you'd be, you couldn't, you wouldn't be taken to

- - - 00:03:00 - - -

the ship and so he they stopped in a town and he put himself up for for you
know you can you can capture me you can buy me if you want for so much money huh

- - - 00:03:20 - - -

And they did.
And he was in Massachusetts at the time.
Well, he married the farmer's daughter within a year.

- - - 00:03:40 - - -

And that way he had to be let loose from being an indentured servant.
They couldn't call him an indentured servant anymore.
So he married the farmer's daughter and they lived there for quite a while.

- - - 00:04:00 - - -

And then when Ohio was opened up, they moved.
He and some of the kids moved to Ohio.

- - - 00:04:20 - - -

Now I found out that he had two sons that were down south and he decided he was going
to go visit them.
And he ended up down in that area where his two sons lived.

- - - 00:04:40 - - -

And they don't call him Kneep.
His name was Kneep.
But they don't call him that there.
They call him Kneep.
How would you spell that, Renee?
How do I spell it?

- - - 00:05:00 - - -

Yeah.
K-n-e-i-p-p.
But that isn't his correct spelling.
His correct spelling is Kneep.
But that isn't his correct spelling. His correct spelling is K-N-E-I-P-P.

- - - 00:05:20 - - -

And he ended up living down there and it took me and my daughter quite a while to find him in the bottom part of Indiana.
You mean Illinois?

- - - 00:05:40 - - -

I don't, well it may have been Illinois.
It was Illinois, I don't know exactly where the property is.
I've been to the Canipe Cemetery.
Well, I've been to the cemetery where he was at, but I didn't find it for most of the people

- - - 00:06:00 - - -

there.
I went to a town not too far from there and they told me where he was buried and where
he had made his stone.
You went to Lawrenceville, Illinois, I'll bet.
Well it could have been there because it's been quite a long number of years since I

- - - 00:06:20 - - -

was down there.
Yeah.
he lived in that area he died in that area where his Christian Christian

- - - 00:06:40 - - -

Kenny Christian was his name now once I have but I can't tell you exactly where
it is and if you want to come down and see me I'll take the time to find it I
I got a book that was in that was someone drew all the drawings of what

- - - 00:07:00 - - -

our ancestor looked like. What the uniform was he wore. He would not allow me, I called

- - - 00:07:20 - - -

the person who did the book, I asked him if he would allow me to put a picture of that
in the history that I wrote on the Phelps. And he said no, I could not. So it still sits in the

- - - 00:07:40 - - -

book that I have. Interesting. Now what book did you write Renee? What book did I write?
Yes. Well, I didn't write, I did write some on the Phelps because Morris was one of my

- - - 00:08:00 - - -

grandfathers. Yes. And we went into Missouri to find where his parents had

- - - 00:08:20 - - -

lived and all of that and my grandmother whose name was Laura

- - - 00:08:40 - - -

Ezra Thompson.
Ezra Thompson, yes.
Okay, Ezra was hit her sister.
But I also found a book that had been written about Laura, Laura the
I also found a book that had been written about Laura. Laura decided she was in Missouri and my grandfather, one of my other grandfathers, was asked by Brigham Young to stay in Missouri and help all the poor people get out.

- - - 00:09:00 - - -

- - - 00:09:20 - - -

Who's that?
Shadrach Crowny.
Oh, of course, yeah, Shadrach Crowny, okay.
He was one of them and another one that was my grandfather who had to get out of there real fast was Charles T. Rich.

- - - 00:09:40 - - -

And anyway, when she got out of Missouri with the help of Eversie Kimball and a few other people and Shadrach Rowdy, she went to Brigham Young, not Brigham Young, she went to the Prophet, he was still alive.

- - - 00:10:00 - - -

And she said, what do you think about getting our men out of jail?
He had been taken down to Columbia, Missouri

- - - 00:10:20 - - -

Because they were going to hang him
And so grandma
Laura got her one of her brothers who did not join the church but he lived with family

- - - 00:10:40 - - -

and he went with her and Orson Pratt
and one other one. Give me a minute here he had a very unusual name. King Follette.

- - - 00:11:00 - - -

King's Hall was in jail as part of the Pratt and Morris Helps.
Yes, at that time.
And Lumen Gibbs.
I've never heard about a Lumen Gibbs being with them.

- - - 00:11:20 - - -

Yeah, he was.
But anyway, do you have something that would show it to me?
Not on the tip of my tongue, but yes.
Where would I find it?
Well, I would start with the part if you prat autobiography.

- - - 00:11:40 - - -

First, biographies.
Well, he was the only one that wrote about it.
And he didn't write about a Lumen Gibbs that I don't want.
Okay.
But anyway, okay.
So, possibly Lumen Gibbs.
Anyway, she went for Joseph Smith and he said, I think it's a great idea.

- - - 00:12:00 - - -

She got one of her brothers who was not a member, an Orson Pratt, and they went out
in the woods to hide.
My daughter and I went down there to see what we could find in Columbia.

- - - 00:12:20 - - -

Now at that time, Columbia was starting a new university.
And she was told by Morris not to touch them.

- - - 00:12:40 - - -

When they went out of that cage, when the jailer came to give them food,
he said, whatever you do, don't touch us, don't come near us.
And so she didn't.
The men in town, they kicked her out of the jail when the men got loose.

- - - 00:13:00 - - -

And Morris was doing a pretty good clip along the way with his horse.
And somebody stopped him and he started swearing up a storm.

- - - 00:13:20 - - -

And they said, oh, he can't be a Mormon.
They don't swear like that.
So he got me.
That's right.
That's right.
Anyway, there was a young boy in town.

- - - 00:13:40 - - -

And the people were making fun of Laura.
And he went home and he told his parents about her.
And they came back into town and they got her.

- - - 00:14:00 - - -

And they kept her until she was well. She was quite ill.
But they paid a man, they gave him a horse and they gave her a horse and they paid him

- - - 00:14:20 - - -

to take her to safety and that's how she made it to safety.
That's great.
What's the major source of your information today?
Okay, I'll start with my mother. My mother was a genealogist from the word go.

- - - 00:14:40 - - -

Okay. I was just a little shaver and she had it written down. Okay. And I used her
for a church talk one day. I said this is the lady that has my crew, you know, I'm

- - - 00:15:00 - - -

pretty proud of her and so I have it in my genealogy room but I have to promise
you my genealogy room is anything but what a genealogy room should look like I

- - - 00:15:20 - - -

I have done a lot of writing and I've done a lot of histories and I don't live in a very big house but it's full to the brim right now.
Where do you live Renee?
I live in Springville.

- - - 00:15:40 - - -

Okay.
Where do you live?
I live in Burleigh, Idaho.
Burleigh?
Yep.
Well, that's not too far from oh it's about three hours from you
Well

- - - 00:16:00 - - -

It's in Idaho

- - - 00:16:20 - - -

past, you know what they have BYU, BYU right now.
Rexburg?
Yes, Rexburg.
Okay, Rexburg.
They're west of Rexburg.
Okay.
It's a farm family that brings milk down here, and I buy it all the time.

- - - 00:16:40 - - -

Now, have you written a book about Laura Clark Phelps?
No, I haven't written anything other than what my mother had.
OK.
And it's there.
I mean, I've got stuff in my.

- - - 00:17:00 - - -

What I ought to do, Charles, is maybe
I can get your address I can see what I can find.

- - - 00:17:20 - - -

I get delighted to have that.
Okay you're Charles.
Charles what?
Clark.
Clark.
Clark, okay, you're a Clark.

- - - 00:17:40 - - -

Okay.
One of, one of what's his names?
Your grandfather or whatever his name was, had a daughter who, she was married to a man,

- - - 00:18:00 - - -

He was a polygamist.
And,
he ended up marrying several women
after the manifesto.
And so, she left him.

- - - 00:18:20 - - -

Was this Annie Clark Tanner and Joseph Marion Tanner?
Say that again.
Annie Clark Tanner and Joseph Marion Tanner.
Joseph M. Tanner.
I don't remember what his name was.

- - - 00:18:40 - - -

Okay, continue.
He ended up going up to Canada.
Yes, that's it, that's Joseph.
Okay.
And her older boys went to Canada.
He had taken his youngest son up there, Old C. Tanner.
Yes.

- - - 00:19:00 - - -

And she told them about it and they said we will be back mom and we'll have him.
He's very intelligent and he should do better than that, running a farm for dad.
They went up and they got him.

- - - 00:19:20 - - -

The only time I figured out, I read that book, I found it at DI because I was
writing a history on one of Shadrach Roundy's family.
And she had been kind of forced into a marriage, let's say a marriage that was not a good marriage,

- - - 00:19:40 - - -

- - - 00:20:00 - - -

with one of, she had anyway, she left her husband, she had two sons and she left them

- - - 00:20:20 - - -

both because she couldn't get out of it otherwise and somebody she knew took her
wet Salt Lake and took her to Salt Lake and she found what one of her sons was

- - - 00:20:40 - - -

and he was living up in
uh
o'can washington or some place like that and she went up there and stayed with him for quite a while

- - - 00:21:00 - - -

and then she found her younger brother or son that came down here anyway i was asked to write
her history and I found the book on what's her name

- - - 00:21:20 - - -

chosen better Oh see Tanner Oh see Tanner was brought back here by his
brothers and she had gone to Salt Lake to hear her husband talk. She was talking

- - - 00:21:40 - - -

in Bear Lake and she went to see my grandmother. She talked about her being
at my grandmother's house. My grandmother was Charles C. Rich's third wife. And that's

- - - 00:22:00 - - -

where I connected the two families. Now. That would be what, Sarah P.? No, Sarah P. was

- - - 00:22:20 - - -

his first wife. Yeah. She picked the other wife. And my grandmother was she drove a wagon
across the plane. I have I had COVID and it hit my memory real bad. I'm sorry.

- - - 00:22:40 - - -

No, that's too bad.
I'm getting back slowly.
Good.
Renee, does Kimball have your address?

- - - 00:23:00 - - -

I do.
I don't think anybody has.
Renee, I stopped by and visited you,
if you recall, for a short moment.
So I do have your address.
You have my address?
I do.
Remember, I stopped by and visited you in your living room?
We spoke for a minute.
Well...
Oh, yeah, we did for a minute.

- - - 00:23:20 - - -

Yeah.
Now, I'm the one that corrected you on Annie,
because you said that she was not faithful to the Church.
That was not true. She was.
Thank you.
That's why I like to talk to old people.

- - - 00:23:40 - - -

Thank you!
Anyway, Renee, are you acquainted with Bruce Peterson?
Which Bruce Peterson?
The Bruce Peterson who wrote the book about Morris Helps?

- - - 00:24:00 - - -

No, and I've never been able to find one.
Well, I have to tell I have to get your address and have him send you one.
He also wrote a book highlighting
Morris Helps
track across the country in great detail.
What's his name?

- - - 00:24:20 - - -

Bruce Peterson lives in Farmington.
Bruce...
Peterson.
I have to get you together with him.
I'd like to get one of his books.

- - - 00:24:40 - - -

Yeah, we'll have to figure out how to do that.
I'll talk to him.
Renee, I need to go, but I need to get your address and phone
number because the next time I'm down there,
I need to stop in and see you.
I have a daughter that lives near Payson,

- - - 00:25:00 - - -

so we're prone to come down there anyway.
Payson is two or three towns south of me.
Yeah, I know.
I've got to go through Spanish Fork, and then Salem, and then
Elk Ridge.
Oh, Elk Ridge is.

- - - 00:25:20 - - -

OK, you've got to go through Spanish Fork, Salem, and Elk
Ridge, and there's another one up there, but then Payson.
Right.
But before any of those, you probaled it first and then

- - - 00:25:40 - - -

Springville.
Yeah, I've been there several times,
so it'll be easy to find you.
So let me get your name, address, and phone number
from Kimball, and we'll go from there.
OK, but give me Bruce's number.
I will.
I will send that to you.

- - - 00:26:00 - - -

OK.
Bruce Peterson.
I thought, are we talking about the one who
used to write the books on the Book of Mormon?
Or are we just?
No, no, no, no.
No, he's an engineer who just, he's
a descendant of Morris Phelps and Sarah Holmes.

- - - 00:26:20 - - -

Oh, Sarah.
Yes.
There was one of his polygamous wives.
Correct.
Yes.
I think that's the one he married after Laura died.

- - - 00:26:40 - - -

Well, Laura died in 1842.
Correct, February.
Yes.
And he married.
What did you say?
Didn't he marry Sarah Holmes next?

- - - 00:27:00 - - -

He may have married Sarah Holmes.
Now, this was another way I found out we were related.
My youngest son wanted to go to a mission farewell
of his best buddy, who you'd swear they were brothers.
They moved up here when they were juniors and all the kids in the high school thought

- - - 00:27:20 - - -

they were brothers.
And we were sitting in the kitchen, his mother and his grandmothers, and his one grandmother

- - - 00:27:40 - - -

looked at me and she said, do you know anything about the riches?
I said, well, sure I do.
I said, that's my maiden name.
My father was a rich.

- - - 00:28:00 - - -

And anyway, she said, well, we are related to,
and it must have been Sarah.
And I said, well, she married Morris after Laura died.

- - - 00:28:20 - - -

She died in 1842.
And so they kind of farmed out all the older girls.
And my daughter, or not my daughter, Mary Ann,

- - - 00:28:40 - - -

Mary Ann Phelps was my third grade grandmother.
Oh.
The suit chief wanted to buy her
on the way across the plains.
Grandmother said, oh no, no, she too good wife.

- - - 00:29:00 - - -

I keep her.
know that she's simple. I steal her. That's all we're doing. So we got all these wives gathered
around him and he said, don't you girls go anywhere without me. Anyway, but Mary Ann Phelps was my

- - - 00:29:20 - - -

third great grandmother. Annie was talked about her in Bear Lake and that's how I connected
I am very interested in this book on Morris Phelps.

- - - 00:29:40 - - -

Okay.
Well, Renee, thank you so much for your help.
I just thought I'd introduce you two and at some point A. Charles is going to come visit
me in Kaysville.
Maybe he could do a visit with you and maybe even I could go with him and we could talk
and maybe record you with all the knowledge that you have.

- - - 00:30:00 - - -

Would that be a possibility?
That would be a possibility, but give me a little bit of time to go through my jenny.
Oh, it's my haven.
It's where I'm going to make it to heaven, you know, because I've gone down there.

- - - 00:30:20 - - -

Well, I appreciate your help.
I appreciate your help and one other thing Renee, I will let you know I've been recording this phone call.
Are you okay if I do that? If I just have that for our family organization's records?

- - - 00:30:40 - - -

You're welcome to, but remember, I told you, my daughter and I went to register a car.
Uh huh.
That had given to her because she took care of her two friends.
And somebody walked in that had a very bad case of COVID and we both got it.

- - - 00:31:00 - - -

And so there might be a thing or two in there but I will look for that history.
That'd be great.
Yeah okay.
I will look for it.
So are you okay if I just put this in our system that has kind of a lot of recordings of phone calls

- - - 00:31:20 - - -

from with older folks and whatnot regarding the history of the Clarks and
so on and so forth. Only if you don't call me an older folk. Okay, okay wiser folks how's that a wiser folk is that better? I will
call you Renee Mountier the the wisest of them all. No, you call me Renee Rich. No I'm teasing. Okay well well

- - - 00:31:40 - - -

yeah if if you're okay with that I just I don't like to do that without people
knowing that's all it's called a Mormon mother

- - - 00:32:00 - - -

The extra ones?
Oh, my daughter just said she knew where my extra ones were at.

- - - 00:32:20 - - -

Well, Renee, thank you so much for your time.
We're going to close out this call, but we'll definitely be in touch with you to follow
up.
Okay, we'll see you.
Thank you, Renee.
Okay, thanks again, sister.
Bye.
Bye-bye.
Bye-bye.
Charles, why don't you stay on?
Kimball.
Kimball. Okay, how was that? Well, you're a very patient person.