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You are suffering.

I broke a kneecap.

You playing soccer or something?

Nope, I just fell.

Oh my goodness. Is it painful?

It is debilitating. It means that I'm trapped.

I need to defecate that there's no way to get to the bathroom.

I need to urinate and there's no relief.

It's, it's problematical, but I'm all things considered,

I'm still doing fairly well.

Did you hear about Beverly Clark?

No, what's happened?

Beverly passed away, I think this morning or yesterday.

Do you know who Beverly is?

I think she must be your cousin or?

She is.

She's your cousin, yeah.

So Dale, her husband passed away recently.

Beverly is the daughter of Dr. Russell Clark. Correct. And John. Yes, her brother. Right. So she just passed away. I got word she just passed away from April either yesterday or today.

She was kind of, you know, her mind was slipping a little bit and we were lucky enough to interview her before she passed away.

So we have a good two hour interview of Beverly and Dale somewhat. Dale chimed in here and there before they both passed away.

So it's on Kindex. I'm getting it transcribed right now.

It might be something fun for you to listen to or read. You can do either or.

You're doing a great job.

Oh, well thank you.

Keep up the work.

Yeah, it was great. It was interesting to hear what she had to say.

Oh, you know, on that note, she did talk about Pernissie Bagley and Pimelia Dunn.

So that was interesting.

You could hear about that.

So how's your book coming along, Glenn?

Your book?

The book that you've been writing.

At the moment, it's in a state of arrested development.

Well, you have a lot of time to sit.

If I recover, I hope to get back to it and complete it.

Well, how far along are you?

It will take several months to achieve something like the mobility I had before.

So are you living with your wife or are you living at a center where they try to get you

going again?

Right now I am in a care facility.

A care facility.

I'm sorry, that's not, that's the pits.

That's right. Well, it's a superb facility.

Well good.

They do their best and it is actually rather good.

Good.

Well, that's good to hear.

Do your kids come visit often?

The one son who lives close by visits me regularly.

Oh, that's good.

As does my wife.

Well, I'm sure your wife would.

She was a champ with you on our trip.

You're a lucky man to have her as a wife.

You know that, right?

I do indeed.

I sure liked her a lot.

She was awesome to get to know.

I've recently gone through something of a dispute

with a distant relative who has ancestral ties

to the same New Haven and Milford settlers, as do I.

And I think I was able to persuade him

that my reading of the ancestral genealogy is the only plausible reading that Deacon

George came from Essex, well, farmer George came from London.

So that's what the dispute was about?

The Bruff family in Randolph has for years insisted that Deacon George came from Hertfordshire.

I admit that there are clues that lead one to believe that to be possible.

But when you assemble all of the available evidence, it's quite clear that Deacon George

George comes from a great burst

of Essex. Wait, wait, wait.

You said that Deacon George

came from London and farmer

George came from Essex. Deacon

George comes from a great was

born in great birth through

Essex. Oh, Farmer George comes

or George. is associated

the court.

Leadership.

In the founding of New Haven.

It is Deacon.

It is farmer George, whose ancestry and descendency

is historically far more notable than Deacon George.

than Deacon George.

The LDS Clark family has mistakenly focused on Deacon George,

when in fact, all of the most interesting

happened on my missions.

Those interesting and

connections are too. Farmer

you say? What do you say?

What do you say? Ching? Ching?

What is that? Spell that for

me. CHITWLL. Okay. It is a

small village which is in

Essex but it is right on the

the northern border of

Chigwell Essex. is the the seat.

of uh Harper George's family.

Got it. So, if I need, if I ever

go to London, I need to go to

Chigwell.

Yes, you you do need to go to

Okay. If you look at the material that I have recently put on family search, you will see both my several page.

Glenn Clark at the Yale Law School and a three-generation chart of the family of Farmer George.

Well, did Timothy Baldwin, did the Timothy Baldwin Clark book done by A. Charles, did

that embrace some of your learning?

Was that sourced properly?

Didn't it talk about this ancestry?

A Charles, like all others, has been

looking for an ancestry connected to Deacon George.

got it. There is in fact a

strong

hypotheticals support for the following proposition.

Deacon George

and his wife, Sarah Buttell

are closely related

the leading families who settled in New England.

I have concluded that the search for the immigration record of Deacon George is futile. It doesn't

exist. He was an undocumented immigrant. But it is clear that

he is pattern of movements, follow that of his wife's

relatives who were the founders of Hartford. Bottom line, Deacon George was in Weathersfield.

That's one of the three Connecticut towns of the Connecticut River that were the original

settlement of Thomas Hooker's movement from the Boston area

to the Connecticut River Valley.

Egan George was in Wethersfield prior to the formation of Milford. While Farmer George was in New Haven prior to the formation of Milford.

got it. The two of them came one from the West one from the East to settle and

spend the rest of their lives in Milford. And there's the vast confusion. Each have

wife named Sarah each died in the same year their respective wives Sarah died

in the same year. Wow. The confusion has been unending for 300 years.

Did you resolve the confusion? I believe I have. I believe that the account that now exists on Family

search and on ancestry is the correct account.

Got it. And this is the account that you have just documented

just recently and posted.

Well, the chart that I distributed at the time of our,

or our tour through Connecticut, Massachusetts and Ohio,

illustrates this or what I'm saying. Right, did you put it under, which name did you put it under?

Did you put it under Deacon George or did you put it under Farmer George or both? Both. Both, okay.

If you look at people keep changing and contaminating the family search record,

right, but I have quite quite confident that the family connections I've outlined,

And the Walter Edward Clark family tree on Ancestry provides the correct account.

So this is the Glen Clark at the Yale Law School, 1960 and 1963.

That's the document you're talking about, right?

Correct.

Okay, I'm looking at it now.

Wonderful. I am so glad you documented this.

Is there anything new to this document?

document?

Not really.

The important thing is to simply dismiss out of hand and

completely

anything and everything

that the Bruff family is putting forward.

Okay. It is BS. Okay, so the Brough families are claiming one thing and you're claiming another.

What? The Brough family is claiming one thing and you are claiming another.

Yes, yes. Okay, got it. Well that's helpful. Brough meaning B-R-O-U-G-H.

Correct. Correct.

But you also alluded to the fact that the Clarks have had it wrong for 300 years.

Everybody has had it wrong for 300 years.

years. Neither farmer George nor Deacon George was married to,

what's her name? Sarah.

Right. But you said they were both Sarahs and they died in the same year and they were both from the same city there in Connecticut.

So that's the confusion. Right? Right.

that correctly? Okay. So this would have been George Deacon Clark would have been Timothy

Baldwin Clark's what grandfather?

Both Farmer George and Deacon George are the ancestors of Timothy Baldwin Clark. Right, right.

OK.

That is large parts of the Clark family in America

trace their ancestry to only to Deacon George or only

to Farmer George.

But we Mormon Clarks chase our ancestry

to both of them.

Okay, so the important thing is to understand that one is not to be emphasized above the other.

Right.

Well, it is true that the family of Farmer George has connections to, shall we say, the

royal families of New Haven.

Well, Deacon George does not. Deacon George is a run-of-the-mill Essex farmer. Farmer

George is the is the father in law of the person who bears the same relation to Yale

college that John Harvard does to Harvard college.

If lens, what's simple to look carefully at the especially at

the ancestry filed for the family of Walter Edward Clark.

I believe that is now both complete and correct.

The reason why it must now be accepted as correct

is that it is the only family that

meets Donald Leibstacobus' description of the family

members that is the brothers of Farmer George. It is complete

only if one takes account of the second marriage of...

Let's see what's his name.

The father of Deacon George.

Thomas. Yeah. The father of

farmer, George. I don't have

the record in front of me. Is

it? Is it John or Samuel? It

It is John, a ship maker of Ratcliffe,

the ancient port on the Thames where

vessels were constructed.

Got it.

OK.

Interesting.

So do you have this documentation on your tree on Ancestry?

Yes, I do.

Okay, good.

Because FamilySearch doesn't really have

a good detail of it.

And you've told me before to honor yours

instead of FamilySearch's, more so.

In regard to the tree, you have told me

that the Clark tree is more accurate and correct

on the Ancestry tree, which is under your father's name,

than the one that's on FamilySearch.

Well, I keep correcting people who barge in and do strange and silly things to the Family

Search Tree.

Right.

At least, before the accident, when I last looked at it, I had corrected it and brought

the family search tree into conformance

with the ancestry tree.

Right.

Good.

Well, that's very good.

The family search tree does not tell of anybody beyond,

it has John Clark and Elizabeth Rogers.

And then it does, then it says John Clark's father

John Clark and no spouse and it stops right there. About 1745 is the last known year of

an ancestor on the Farmer George, or the Farmer Clark line it looks.

Sadly, I don't have this in front of me, but that's not right.

I know, I know we have more information and I'm just confused why that one stops.

I can see George Clark and Sarah Botel, which is Deacon George, right?

Right.

Okay, and that's on FamilySearch and then it goes up from there and has Thomas Clark and Catherine Ronde, but it stops right there.

So that's all that FamilySearch has.

So...

Okay, ancestry goes further now.

That's what I thought.

Who is indicated to be the father of Farmer George?

Thomas Clark. No. No. Thomas is

not the father of Farmer George.

Okay. Well, then, Family Search

has it wrong. It says, Thomas

Clark and Katherine Ronde were

the parents of George Clark who

is married to Sarah Botel.

That's Oh, you're talking about

Farmer George. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Farmer George is not even

listed on Family Search that I

That's what's confusing about this.

Well, somebody has recently mucked it up again.

Probably.

So yeah, I'm looking at Timothy Baldwin Clark's pedigree right now, and it looks like it says that his father was John, his father was John, his father was John, his father was John, and then it stops.

No, that's all garbage.

Okay, that's what I suspected. So yeah, somebody's probably mucked it up again.

So, but nonetheless, your ancestry chart is one that I think we need to probably honor more.

Wendy Wonderly, do you know who she is? Does that ring a bell?

It does.

So Wendy Wonderly has been coming and helping the Ezra T. Clark family as well as Kindax

with a few record with quite a bit of work but she's kind of becoming the

de facto genealogist of the Ezra T Clark family organization including I think

you and maybe a Charles and we need to get you guys together to get this

accurate and right Wendy's got a pretty good mind I think you'd be impressed

She's been kind of putting that together and I gave her your tree to look at.

And that's been very helpful for her to tease out a lot of answers.

So we may be proposing her to be the genealogist of the family organization.

In fact, you wouldn't be bad at bad proposal either.

I just don't know if you're capable of doing it.

considering your book and your knee and whatnot.

But I don't know.

No, in my age of condition,

I am no longer a camp physician.

Yeah, but you would be good help to her.

I ought to give her your number

so she can call you if she has any questions.

So who was the person, Glenn,

who came to a Clark reunion years ago?

This was in Farmington at the chapel,

the rock chapel, who gave the whole presentation on Leclerc,

the French line.

I'm not speaking.

I'm doing.

Leclerc, stating that the Clercs were

from a French line of Leclercs.

They were Normans.

Have you heard of this?

Garbage.

Oh.

Garbage.

OK.

Garbage, garbage, garbage.

The basic tale is quite simple.

The Clark family originates in the forest of the Ardennes,

the place where the Battle of the Bulge took place.

Yep.

Namur.

They moved, they and several other Huguenot converts

of John Calvin, moves from Namur to the coastal city

near Calais.

Specifically, it is believed that this is presumption,

specifically to Conde Cernasco.

the skull. Convey on the shelves, right on the border between France and Belgium. The

Clark families that we are concerned with are uniformly first generation converts of John Calvin

to his new reform religion. They have no roots in either English or French

nobility.

Interesting.

Always have it in mind that the center of the Farmer George family in Chigwell, Essex,

right on the border between Essex and London, is the seat of the Hainaut Forest.

I know is the province which straddles Belgium and France this is all spelled

out in that document Glen Clark at the Yale Law School okay excellent I

believe that by carefully reading that following that you will be able to put

it together correctly. Okay, excellent. Well, thank you. That's very helpful. Well, Glenn,

I'm just calling to wish you luck and hopefully, you know, encourage you to get right and do

what it takes to get your body in order so that you can finish up that book for our posterity

and your posterity?

Let's hope.

So Cynthia told me that that you have to do a lot of a lot of physical exertion

to get better.

Is that is that the case?

That is the case.

So how are your bones in your old age?

Are they going to heal?

I think so.

Good.

We're not talking about powdered milk bones, huh?

You've got some tough ones? Some tough bones?

Come on, you've got Alice Randall Clark in you.

Well, I've been startled recently that

not merely people I know about,

but people I know are passing away, dropping like flies.

Wow. How old are you now?

Tom Rogers a week ago.

How old are you, Glenn?

I just turned 89.

Oh, well, no.

I still have had this accident on my 89th birthday.

Wow, right on your birthday, huh?

Right.

You're going to make it to 100 like President Nelson?

I may.

Well, I hope so.

Well, Ellsworth, my grandfather, he

was so frustrated that his body was failing

and his mind was as sharp as a tack that it just irritated him.

Understandably.

My father almost gave up teaching because he made Ellsworth cry.

Go on.

I've heard this story before, but go on.

He said, if I can't maintain a good relationship with the best student I've ever had or will

have, I have a failure as a teacher.

Oh, that's so funny.

Well and get, you know, Ellsworth became a teacher and then a principal, did you know

that?

I did.

At Granite High, I think.

That's where it was.

And then he went into Flora, he became a florist, which I find very interesting.

I think he couldn't get rid of that green thumb that's just so apparent in our family.

I can't seem to shake it myself.

Have I told you the story about Clark's lantern?

Yes, but you can tell it to me again.

The moon in Georgetown was taught by some to be an honored representation of Charles

Clark's ability in industry.

Charles Clark was in a certain sense always out of place and out of time.

He didn't belong in Georgetown.

He wasn't a farmer.

He didn't succeed as a merchant.

He would sit at the general store in Georgetown and arguably proselytize tourists who stopped

at the location.

Now quick question, I'm going to stop you.

Is it Charles Rich Clark you're talking about or Marion Charles Clark?

Charles Rich.

OK.

So Marion Charles was Ellsworth's father.

You're talking about Ellsworth's grandfather, Charles Rich.

Charles Rich Clark was the one who

was with Annie Clark Tanner as a student at BYU in Pomo.

OK, correct.

He understood that Marion Tanner's approaches to Annie

were improper and said as much.

But Annie did not understand her own position,

Because her mother was the second wise,

she saw it as perfectly right, just, and honorable,

that she should be, in plural, wise.

The truth is that Annie had been born

to the greatest capitalist in Farmington.

She could not be dissuaded.

She did, in fact, marry Tanner and went through a life of,

well, hell, it was not.

But it was only a little better.

Marion Tanner is the great enigma.

Esther T. Clark's address at his, in 1901, just before he

died, dividing the properties and sending Wilford, Charles,

and Edward to Georgetown.

The testimony that accompanied that meeting

was quite obviously written by Marianne Tanner.

The family's great enigma and continuing conflict is what exactly to make of Antani's belief

actions. As you know, OC Tanner's daughter became the Episcopal Bishop of Utah.

Correct.

The Clark family is associated at its core with every branch of the LDS church as it

experienced the schism in Nauvoo.

Every branch.

Some became Strangites. Those who went to California

formed the basis of the, what is now the community of Christ on the west coast.

Hmm, the Josephites.

Correct, correct.

You used the right word.

There's no other way of saying it.

You have to describe the one group as Josephites and the other as Brigabites.

Right.

I understand.

I understand what okay but you said every splinter group essentially every

schism so keep going telling me all the other schisms okay

of all, William O. Clark converted both Albert

Carrington, the apostle who surveyed the Great Salt Lake,

and the person who founded the, what is now the Community of Christ.

Really? Which was, and then that's the same person?

So you're, okay.

They're different people.

So who was the person that founded the Community of Christ?

My memory is slipping.

He was a compatriot of the Zenos Gurley.

The tale that was told at the Kirtland Temple so long as the Josephites owned it emphasized

this connection.

The greatest change that has now taken place is that the story that will be told to visitors

incurrment will be a different one.

So I thought that Joseph Smith III was the founder of the

Community of Christ.

No, no, no, no. Those who founded the Community of Christ

did so in anticipation that young Joseph could be prevailed

upon to accept the role of his dead father.

But young Joseph played no role in establishing

that religious group.

Interesting. I'm trying to find the name of the person that established the community of Christ

to spring your history. No, we're not. Let's see. What year was this?

And you're saying William O. converted him? Correct.

Wow.

And so William O. was a member of the church at the time of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

He was a missionary of the LDS church in the Wisconsin Pineries.

Got it, okay.

Well where do you find this history that you're telling me about?

Oh boy. Where is it? I never knew this about William O. I know William O endured

a lot of hardships with his brother Ezra obviously and his other brothers, other

siblings. But I don't I didn't know that he converted the

person who ended up becoming the founder of the of that church.

of the Josephites.

Yeah.

If you check the family connections

that I have on the ancestry of Walter Edward Clark tree,

I believe it's all spelled out there.

Oh, OK.

And you have, did that allow you to, does that particular tree allow you to put text

and history related to individuals?

It does.

It does, okay.

So it's spelled out there then.

When it comes to William O., it's spelled out there.

Does that sound accurate?

So you've written this and William O's entry

on the Ancestry tree?

William O, I have put up.

There is a separate tree on Ancestry

for William Oglesby Clark.

Right, okay.

It largely duplicates the Walter Edward Clark tree.

tree right but the extensive California connections of William O's family are

developed of the William Oglesby Clark tree on ancestry

Well, I'm trying to find these early founders of the RLDS Church. There's not much there.

They do a pretty good job of preserving our history, but not their own.

Unfortunately, I've got to get well in order to get back and memorialize this.

Well that's interesting. So I didn't know you had a William O. tree as well. That would be fascinating.

I understand that it's all died out, right? There's no living descendants of William O. at this point.

No, no descendants except the descendants of the Hume orphans, HULME, who were adopted

but William all would take it to California

interest there's a large there okay that are still living there's still

living got it okay what was that you already you already spelled that so

that's great to hear that there's some still living in fact that might be an

interesting angle to hit up at some point are they still members of that

church or are they no longer affiliated with that church? No, the Hume orphans ended up settling in

Bear Lake Valley, Idaho. Really?

Wow, and so I'm assuming there might be members of our church if they settled there.

I don't know who knows.

Hume.

H- what was that?

Spell that again for me.

H-U-L-M-E.

Hume.

Okay, interesting.

One other question for you since I got you on the phone.

Does the name Renee Mountier ring a bell to you?

Renee Mountier.

No.

She is a descendant of Lara Clark Phelps.

She reached out to me recently and I got her a book, the Timothy Baldwin book that A. Charles

had written.

I got that to her.

She's a descendant of Lara Clark Phelps and Shadrach Roundy.

That rings a bell, right?

Shadrach Roundy?

Yes.

So, very fascinating woman.

She's written several books.

She's still alive, lives out in, is it, somewhere in the Salt Lake area, kind of south.

out there. Maybe, no Provo or Utah County area is where she was. I think she's more

so Orem or something like that. Anyway, but just a really fascinating woman wrote some

incredible books on Shadrach Roundy, but she's from Laura Clark Phelps, which is really fascinating

and has a lot of insight to the Clark family from that line. So anyway, that would be a

person I would love for you to meet her and talk with her at some point.

Dick, maybe, you know,

it's interesting. You see, the Clark family, this said, we think of ourselves

as descendants of Israel T. But the this but the the Mormon descendency of

typically ballroom Clark comes mostly through the three daughters of Laura

Clark Phelps

hmm

yes you say the Mormon descendancy correct because of their hard work

because of their missionary work right

one of the pioneers, pioneer settlers of Clover Creek, that is to say, Montpelier, Bear Lake County,

Idaho. Interesting. So that the Holmes and Phelps, who are exceedingly numerous in Bear Lake Valley,

Valley are the descendants of Timothy Baldwin Clark.

I didn't know that.

Wow.

Well, another of the daughters of Laura Clark Phelps married was the plural wife of Charles C.

rich. Yeah. And again, the the the rich family is all over the place. Right. But so conspicuously

in Bear Lake Valley. The third daughter of Laura Clark Phelps

was married homes. They predominated in Bear Lake Valley.

Right. Well, Glenn, I sent you a text of Renee Mountier's contact

information. She being a active and genealogical, genealogically minded

participant of the Clark Line from Laura Clark Phelps, if you want to call her and

talk with her someday, that might be a fascinating conversation. So you could go

ahead and call her. Very, very smart intellectual woman, very well read and

well written. She's been I don't know how many books she's written, but knows her history. So that might be a great person to talk to.

And I will try to do that. Yeah. And I got to wrap things up here. But thank you so much for chatting.

Thank you for your call. OK. And one other thing, Glenn, I have recorded this conversation for our history's sake. Are you OK if I put that on Kindex?

Yes.

Okay.

Yes.

Thank you so much, Glenn.

Okay.

Talk to you later.

Bye.

Bye-bye.

Thanks.